Episode 33 | Jonathan Paz | Military Millionaire Podcast

00:00 - 05:00

David:

Hey, what's up guys? It's Dave From military to millionaire today we have an exciting episode with Jonathan Paz where we talk about his journey from 2011 starting to buy houses all the way through current he's got 28 doors, some birds, some condos and the monster house VA loan hack, which is totally worth watching the entire podcast for if you're watching this on YouTube, you got a special treat, we have a pretty cool location today. If not, then enjoy the show and enjoy the audio.

Be sure to check out the show notes at frommilitarytomillionaire.com/podcasts. Now relax and enjoy the show.

Intro:

You're listening to the military millionaire podcast, a show about real estate investing for the working class. Stay tuned as we explore ways to help you improve your finances, build wealth through real estate and become a person that is worth knowing.

David:

Hey, what's up guys, it's Dave from military to millionaire and I'm here with Jonathan Paz who is a captain in the Air Force a major select who is a friend of mine from the last couple years. And we thought that it'd be fun to do a podcast.

This is like my last day before my house gets packed up. It's gonna be weird for me not to look at the camera. So this is gonna be my last podcast here that gets recorded that the exception of maybe one tonight. This is gonna be the coolest because we're out on the beach on Memorial Day. And what better way to spend it and rubbing the face that we're in Hawaii than this.

Anyway, Jonathan, welcome. Thanks for joining me. I know I've been bugging you about a podcast for like a year now. Tell us a little bit about yourself, man.

Jonathan:

All right. My name is Jonathan Paz, stationed at Hickam Joint Base Pearl Harbor Hickam on the other side of this island. Right now we're on the Marine Corps Base.

As David said, he's been trying to get me on a podcast for some time now I'm usually pretty low key. And this is my first time kind of sharing my journey. But I'm honored to do it. I think it's very good cause I like what you're doing with the website and, and the podcast and all the information you're putting out there.

So thanks for having me on the show.

David:

Yeah, absolutely. And I appreciate that. I'm glad it's not a total waste of my time. So, you know, before we started recording, well, I guess we're recording but before I cut the edit here, we were mentioning you've never really told your story.

So let's, uh, let's, where'd you start?

Jonathan:

Alright, so I graduated from college, University of Miami Go Hurricanes in summer of 2010. And then I went ahead and got stationed at Patrick Air Force Base, which is only about three hours north of Miami. My wife was still in college. So she still had two and a half years ago in college, and we weren't quite married yet. But we are pretty serious about getting engaged. So we were pretty good distance apart from each other. Were able to see each other about once a month. And it worked out pretty good.

And while I was living there, Patrick, I was renting a condo right by the beach. It was a beautiful and nice little community. And I was paying about $700 a month in rent. And these were a pretty bad time in the economy where there were a lot of foreclosures, a lot of short sales, there wasn't really a lot of lending opportunities out there. Especially for investors.

So trying to get something because in the state of Florida, Florida just got hammered. They got hammered really bad. So no banks wanted to invest or lend money in investment properties in Florida.

So that was there's just a lot in the market, lots of opportunities. I was living in the same community for six months. And I kept seeing these condos for sale, just all over the place inside the same community.

So I reached out to a local realtor who was a retired Gunnery sergeant, right? Yeah, he was pretty awesome. And he started telling me Hey, you know, I think you can qualify for one of these, these condos. So I got more serious about it. And there was one right across the street from where I was renting, literally, like a couple doors down. And it was for sale for $44,000. It was a short sale. And it had been on the market for about two months. And I said you know what? Why not? Like let's let's go for it. I ran the numbers of a 15 year mortgage on that acquisition as $250 a month was the mortgage.

05:00 - 10:00

Jonathan:

Yeah, yeah. So I was like, well, this sounds a lot better than $700 a month in renting. And this one is ground level, it had a lake view. So it's actually a better property. So I went ahead and got pre approval, I had been saving money for about six, seven months now. So I was able to save enough money to afford a 20% down.

So at the end, it ended up costing $10,000 out of pocket to buy that property with a conventional, conventional mortgage. But I ended up getting a 15 year fixed mortgage $250 a month. And I loved it. It was beautiful. And that's how I got started.

David:

That's awesome.

Jonathan:

Yeah. And it was the easiest move to get just a couple buddies help that we just went downstairs and put stuff right in there. And yeah, it was epic.

David:

Oh, what's that condo worth now? Okay 44?

Jonathan:

It's probably worth about 120,000. I still own it.

David:

Okay.

Jonathan:

Yeah, it's worth it. I've seen him selling for about 120 range.

David:

All right. Not bad for first investment.

Jonathan:

Not bad at all. Not bad at all.

That means, this was a good time to buy. So this was in April 2011. When I went ahead and bought that.

David:

Yep.

Jonathan:

So that was a pretty, I guess, busy year for me, not just, you know, buying my first property to go ahead and live inside it was a whole experience in itself and dealing with a short sale, lots of lessons learned and lenders and things like that.

But on top of that, that was the year that I also got engaged. We got married in the courthouse later that year. Okay, yeah, we went down to Miami and did like a $20, you know, courthouse wedding, so that it also helped start working the joint spouse process because my wife was starting to get geared up towards getting her assignments and things like that. And then we had more time to work on the actual big wedding.

But that was an expensive year paying for a ring after buying the condo. Then saving money for the wedding, which was the following summer. So that was in June of 2012, and the honeymoon and everything like that. We just had no extra money. My wife was a college student and things like that. So I was depleted for about a year after that.

But after that, I went ahead and bought another condo in the same location.

David:

Okay.

Jonathan:

So later that year in 2012, it was not the same community. It was over the causeway they call the mainland. It wasn't a beachside, very good location. And I paid 46,000 for that one. And I've been noticing that comps are very similar to rents and everything like that. So I said this is gonna be a great deal. I can rent it for the same amount. It was towards the end of the year. And I bought that with a VA loan.

David:

Right on.

Yeah, love it.

Jonathan:

Yeah, so that was when I got to learn a little about the VA loan. So I got to first when you buy a condo with a VA, you got to make sure it's a VA approved community, which it was someone had already gone through the hoops to make that community approved, which was which was great, excellent, streamline the process. And that's when I got a little smarter and said, You know what, I don't want to put 20% down because that is $10,000 left basically left me money strapped for an entire year. And that was all my savings till then. Let me try doing this a little smarter.

David:

You mean, cash reserves for the first time?

Jonathan:

I did not have cash reserves. No, I did not. I got wiped away.

So next time what I did was I did 5% down.

David:

Okay. And the reason why 5% is you did a good article about this recently.

David:

The funding fee.

Jonathan:

Yeah, the funding fee.

So if you are buying as an investor or even as an owner occupant, your first VA loan, it's usually already pretty low. But the more money you put down, it does give you a little bit of savings on that on that funding fee.

So I want to put enough money down so I can, you know, I can save it. It was very minimal, but it did save me something. But after the closing costs, which are paid for by the seller, and my lender had promotions that time they're trying to get loans going. They paid for closing costs to write on. I got that condo out of pocket, closing costs and everything for just under $2,500.

David:

Love it.

Jonathan:

Yeah.

David:

That's awesome.

Jonathan:

Yes, my mortgage was just about the same, about $250 a month. And those condos are today. Still rented for about over $1,000 a month.

David:

So yeah, so you made your down payment back in three months? Couple months.

10:00 - 15:00

Jonathan:

Yeah. And you would think okay, why wasn't everyone doing this like these deals were amazing. Why wasn't everyone else buying These properties and they were everywhere, these condos in this market, they're all over the place.

I mean, I had, there must have been at least 60 in different communities, foreclosures, short sales, everything available for anyone to buy. But investors were just hesitant to buy them, the money was just not flowing. So it was a prime opportunity for owner occupants to buy him because that's what banks were giving money for. So what I was doing is I was buying them and moving into them. buying everything was primary, you know, primary residence mortgages. So I was doing a lot of moving around. And that's how I was able to still get the financing I needed for someone who really didn't have a lot of money and get deals done in a hard time.

David:

That's super cool. So he has two condos.

Jonathan:

Yep.

David:

As the owner occupied.

Jonathan:

Yep.

David:

I think that's cool that you, like I knew enough about the VA loan to understand a little bit of a down payment goes a long way, even if you didn't have a ton of cash sitting around. And it sounds like you just kind of accidentally got into real estate.

Jonathan:

I did, I did.

David:

Which is awesome.

Jonathan:

Yeah. I mean, I just it was definitely it was. I have always been okay, so I've always been mindful of money, and my expenses. And I just saw the opportunity. I saw this on my rent check. I think it was like $700 just going away to a landlord. And when I saw that, I can put that cut into a third and be the owner of the property. I just, I couldn't turn that down.

And that was just. Yeah, those times have long gone. Those kinds of deals or, you know, like I said, those properties are now selling for over $100,000 the rents haven't gone up that much, maybe about 20%. But they've quadrupled in value.

David:

Yeah, absolutely.

Jonathan:

Yeah. So those kinds of deals. It's definitely a different market now. Um, but yeah, I mean, it was those are great deals, and I couldn't pass up the opportunities.

David:

Yeah, that's awesome.

Jonathan:

Yeah. So I just turned into landlording.

David:

Phrase like reluctant landlord or accidental landlord.

Jonathan:

Accidental landlord. Yeah, accidental. Absolutely.

David:

Okay. So now, I know you in 2019. And I know you've scaled you know, quite a bit from that if you can't use a paper here that he's got, like an Excel doc and it's a full page paper with the properties so it's a lot more than two. How did you scale that? Like what, at what point were you like, this is what I'm doing? And I'm gonna go big. You are definitely gone.

Jonathan:

It was okay. So it was slow, it was a very slow scaling process. I didn't really start, I would say scaling until a couple years ago.

David:

Okay.

Jonathan:

Really scaling hard. So after Patrick Air Force Base in Melbourne, after I got my, our next assignment, joint spouse assignment went to Tucson, Arizona.

David:

Okay.

Jonathan:

There I bought a HUD home.

David:

What year was Tucson?

Jonathan:

So Tucson Arizona was in. This was 2013.

David:

So still having a great time?

Jonathan:

Yes.

David:

Especially in the Arizona market that market turned around a lot.

Jonathan:

Absolutely. And so this was in March of 2013 was the purchase date. And that is the month that we moved to Arizona. So I bought it without even..

David:

You're doing to look around. I like it.

Jonathan:

I did a visual tour. I got some feedback about the area. This was like I said a foreclosure HUD little townhome that we were able to buy for 102,000 well below our BAH.

David:

Yeah.

Jonathan:

The numbers looked fantastic. So we were able to save several $100 a month. Again, the primary residence, mortgage that we were planning to move into, that's all I knew at this time is I could go to a bank, I can move into the property, they're going to give me a good loan at a fantastic rate and I'm going to get approved. And that's how we kind of got started, that's what we did next.

So we moved to Arizona into this house able to continue to save money at this time. My wife also entered the Air Force so we have dual income coming in. We're saving one of our housing allowances. Because we're living off base, even though all of our friends and everyone was getting the most expensive home they can get within their BAH or above it. We've always been the type to go below our BAH because you want to be able to live and have all of our utilities and also their expenses paid for within our BAH.

David:

Because the lender says you can afford this amount does not mean you need to.

Jonathan:

Yes and every place that we purchased we wanted to make sure that it cash flows as a rental afterwards.

David:

Always.

Jonathan:

So we don't buy it because we think this is a lovely house to live in. We're buying it because we know we can rent it and make money off of it as a rental property and that's where we analyze this property and that's why we decided to pull the trigger and buy it.

15:00 - 20:00
Jonathan:

So yeah, so we went ahead, bought that deal. That same year, we bought another property. It was another condo in the same community of my first condo. That was that.

David:

Okay, so it is a long distance?

Jonathan:

This was a long distance. That's when I started doing long distance real estate investing. And my first deal that I did without actually moving into it with a mortgage.

So at this point, I didn't really like the Tucson market very much.

David:

But the big boy pants on?

Jonathan:

Yes, I started putting the big boy pants on.

I didn't I wasn't a huge fan of the Tucson market. I did that deal, because we were saving money. While living there. I thought, okay, if we can live here for three years, save some money, well at least be able to sell it and break even at the end and, and make money throughout the time of the month. So we were saving money off rent.

So I said, Okay, I really like Melbourne, Florida. I like that market. And I know where these two condo communities are, how much these condos are worth, because I own one in each community. So I said, Okay, I've got, I've got I know the value. And I'm seeing these deals all over the place. Let me try something, let me try buying one of these properties. And it has to be with cash, because lenders aren't lending any money.

So that's when I started doing a lot of creative financing.

David:

Okay.

Jonathan:

And that's really where I wouldn't say I completely scaled my business. But I was able to keep the business going.

David:

Yeah.

Jonathan:

Yeah. Cuz I just didn't like where we were living. Yeah, yeah. So that deal was about a $54,000 acquisition in that community, and that was in August of 2013. And that was the last deal I did that year.

And that property, I don't have the notes here. But I'm pretty confident we bought it either with an auto loan refinance, credit cards that we did balance transfer offers. I know we pulled the home equity line of credit out of the home that we were living in, and Tucson, that same home we had bought, because we had a lot of equity in there. So we did a lot of creative financing, to be able to buy these kinds of deals that we'll continue to talk about.

David:

Yeah.

Jonathan:

So basically, we started buying these properties from a distance, we started buying one to two a year. Just very slow growth, buying with credit cards, which I don't recommend. But again, this is all that I knew how to do. And it worked. And the deals are great. And they were cash flowing. And these were all zero interest offers maximum 3% interest, and I had over a year to pay them off. And I knew we had two incomes that are very solid. And we were saving a lot of money.

So the plan was always buy with, you know, with cash, and then go ahead and pay these off as fast as possible. So over that year, all of our money went to paying off those debts. So all these properties, we were buying these condos were all in the future, all these future acquisitions were all free and clear. So we continued buying condos in those same communities over and over about one to two a year for the next several years to the point where we had like six condos in each community.

Yeah, yeah. So we were the cops, you know, yeah, anytime something was a fair price, we were usually the high bidder, and we got it and we're able to keep it going.

So very slow growth. And that's actually been the my, the primary ways that that I've done business has been my business model. It's always been very steady growth and a lot of on market allows deals I fighters it's not anything that anyone else can't find. It's just looking at the MLS, some Craigslist deals, some stuff. I bought an auction property before too.

But primarily they've been properties that almost anyone else can see. I just happen to know that market better than a lot of other people. Yeah. So as soon as I saw a deal, I had the offer the very next day, I didn't waste any time, which I think gave me the advantage.

David:

Yeah, absolutely. Because if they see something the next day, they're like, oh, shoot, I could, I could wait and see if there's a higher offer or I could just be done with this miserable home selling process.

Jonathan:

Yeah.

David:

Why not be done with it?

Jonathan:

Yeah, and condos are hard to finance. They've usually always been, especially in Florida, are difficult to finance. So whenever a seller sees a cash offer on a condo, it makes them feel more confident that this deal was going to go through.

David:

Yeah.

Jonathan:

And many times that'll let them accept you know, 5-10 15,000 less, you know, then then then what it's worth, just for that confidence that they want the quick sale.

So that has been our niche for probably about five years. Just cash buying condos and townhomes properties that we knew were just difficult for other people to buy and then renting them.

20:00 - 25:00

David:

Yeah.

Jonathan:

Yeah.

David:

That's cool. And being able to buy in cash.

Jonathan:

And paying them off.

David:

Credit card, auto loan. Yeah, I love it.

Jonathan:

Absolutely owning a free and clear.

And the biggest reason why we continue to own them free and clear was that we couldn't pull that cash out. So the banks at this time, we're still not getting lines of credit against these condos even though we own them free and clear for years. They didn't want to give us any money. We had excellent credit, things like that, that didn't matter.

And I would say that the time when we started really growing more rapidly, instead of buying one or two days deals a year we started buying 3,4,5 a year really about last year. So last year is when I think the floodgates opened, and banks really started lending money.

David:

Yeah.

Jonathan:

Yeah, like, I remember every single year, I make it a point to call every single credit union that I can find that it was local to Brevard County, and even going out and calling some other ones that would lend throughout the state of Florida as well. And every year I'd get shot down by all of them. So it was like a routine. I was like, Okay, one day someone's gonna lend me some money.

Well, two years ago, that happened, I finally started, there were three banks that all of a sudden started allowing lines of credit against these condos. So we said, okay, let's start doing some lines of credit.

So yeah, so then, a couple years ago, we started closing on lines of credit, pulling out, you know, 2,3,4,5 lines of credit a month against some of these condos that we own free and clear, which allows to have access to a lot of capital for down payments to buy bigger and better properties.

David:

Yeah, absolutely.

Jonathan:

Yeah.

David:

So is that when you transitioned into the BRRRR strategy a little bit?

Jonathan:

A little bit? Yeah, a little bit.

So I would say that BRRRR actually, I didn't do BRRRR until this year.

David:

Okay.

Jonathan:

But last year, is when I started buying more expensive multifamily like duplex property.

David:

Okay.

Jonathan:

So I started buying a few of these duplex properties. And all in the, in the Melbourne market. And these average purchase price is anywhere from about 150 to 250,000. And when you buy these kinds of properties, with financing, which you can get, you know, financing is a lot easier than a condo.

You're looking at 25% down.

David:

Yeah.

Jonathan:

Yeah. So we started using these lines of credit, to qualify for the down payment, to then go ahead and buy these properties, which cash flowed a little bit better than these condos. Yeah. And allow us. I'll actually get into that a little bit later about hiring property management.

But up until that time, up until last year, I self managed all the properties from wherever I was that I did not hire a property manager.

David:

No thanks.

Jonathan:

Yeah, I had over 15 doors and managed it remotely. Up until last year. Yeah, but that was another reason to help me scale.

David:

Yeah, that's true. You're able to save a little bit more money, but I couldn’t do it. Probably because my 10 units, just this year alone has had U haul hit the roof in three evictions. And I would lose my hair if I was trying to do that from here.

Jonathan:

Yeah.

David:

And I’m sure it's doable. I wasn't ready for that. So I hired it out and I, you know, live my beach life.

Jonathan:

Yeah, well, you gotta think I was the property I was investing in. Were a little 700 square foot condos, which had Hoa that managed the entire exterior.

David:

True.

Jonathan:

They were very nice communities. As soon as I put one of these properties on the market, let's just say Zillow, for rent, Trulia, Craigslist, my phone would ring off the hook, and I would have it rented, and usually two or three days with really first class tenants, I screen them I do background checks everything like that. And had no problem ever renting these things.

If anytime there was an issue, I had a crew on the ground, I had someone I can trust, who was a friend of mine, who actually had retired at a Patrick Air Force Base and continued to work in that area. And he was a craftsman. So he really knew how to fix anything and everything. And he basically did me a favor anytime I needed assistance, someone to go to property and let someone in or or do a show for tenants. He was the guy I'd call.

So I did have almost like a property manager but I didn't pay him a set commission or fee out of the rent. I only paid him when I needed him for something which was maybe once every four months or so.

I needed him to go show a property something like that. I'd pay him, you know, $50 to show something like that, which really saved me a ton of a ton of money.

David:

Yeah.

25:00 - 30:00

Jonathan:

Yeah, a ton of money and I had good systems, automatic leases that I would send out to people and automatic operations. Everything was digitally done remotely. But it was a little bit of a hassle taking all the phone calls when I came to place tenants. But I was willing to do that to save the money and continue to help, which really helped continue to grow a business. Yeah.

David:

Yeah, that's cool. Yeah. So then the scaling part. Alright, so then..

David:

And of course, we got to get to your monster house.

Jonathan:

Yes, that'll come.

David:

Every detail for you know, loan lender reasons. But.

Jonathan:

Yes, yep, yep. Yeah.

So we moved out here in 2017. And that is when I think the business really took off. So at this time, we had both been promoted to captain, we've had a few deployments, we've been able to amass at least at that point, probably 12, and 15. rental properties.

Mostly all actually all condos, condos and townhomes, all in the same area. And we actually bought one more townhome in Tucson just before leaving in the same community with a VA loan. And then we got orders, which allowed us to leave and not fully occupied for a whole year.

So we had two townhomes located in the same community, cash flowing, and we were doing pretty well, we're saving a lot of money. The income was strong. And we were able to start getting these lines of credit.

All right. Let's, let's step up the game a little bit.

David:

Yeah, exciting.

Jonathan:

Yes it was exciting, I said, Okay, if I got to step this game up, the best properties to do that, and multi families.

You know, that's really where I'm able to get loans from banks. I'm able to cash flow when I do have loans. And I'm not gonna manage multi family properties from a distance because the type of tenant that you get in a duplex is not the same as what I'm used to. And typically there in, these the ones that buy or more like B class areas. So I knew that if I did this, I needed the support of a property manager.

So I went ahead and bought my first duplex. It was by the beach, a really nice area. 255,000 had my first experience with a property manager who I had to fire.

David:

I love it when a story goes well.

Jonathan:

Yeah, I had to fire that property manager. You know, I'm used to doing things my way for a while.

You know, I am very detail oriented. And I like things going quick. Like I mentioned before, I'm used to renting things out right away. And I always had a tenant moving into my unit within a week after the next one moved out.

I don't think over about a four or five year period I ever had more than a one week vacancy in any of my units. And that's, that's the way I like doing things.

So I bought this beachside duplex and hired the cheapest property management company I could find at 6%. And they sucked. I mean, the timing was bad, right when I bought it, the hurricane was coming.

David:

Oh, yeah, that's the time.

Jonathan:

Yep.

Everyone kind of left town and I couldn't find the property management company couldn't find someone to board up the windows. They were unresponsive. I couldn't reach them.

Make a long story short, each unit was vacant for about three months after I bought it. The property does not get destroyed by the hurricane. And thank God, none of my properties did. They all did fine.

We finally got tenants in there at a pretty decent amount of rent. But I did need to let that company go. Not only was their process really poor, and acquiring tenants, but a lot of things. They said they fix things they actually didn't. And I had to find out later and yeah, basically, I think sometimes you kind of get what you pay for. Yeah. Yeah. So that's when I...

David:

It’s like Navy medicine.

Jonathan:

Yeah, that's what I learned. Like, yes. Just like that. Oh, man.

Yeah, that's what I learned. You really got to screen your property managers just like you were to screen your tenants.

David:

Yeah.

Jonathan:

Yeah.

David:

I was lucky enough that when I went with a property manager, I had seen an article about just that. And I interviewed three or four and had like a list of I was an annoying dude with like, a list of 20 or 30 questions, you know, but it saved me because the person I was going to go with was absolutely the wrong choice.

And I didn't mean, I didn't necessarily know that at the time. I was just something felt off and so I went with someone else. And now I know a little bit more about management. I would have ended up firing that manager so it's a good thing that just luck of the draw that I stumbled upon that article, but.

30:00 - 35:00

Jonathan:

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. And I would say probably the best thing I did when I did hire that property management is I did have a clause in there that allowed me to break free, if I ever wanted to have no questions asked with no penalty.

David:

Awesome.

Jonathan:

Because I knew that I didn't know that I wasn't 100% sure that I would have them continue to manage that one day, I might manage it myself. So I want to have that clause in there.

It's like a test period. But it wasted me a lot of time, a lot of frustration. It just wasn't worth it. So I started screening, different property management companies looking for the ones that had the best reviews online, and whatnot. And I eventually hired one that was a rockstar, an absolute Rockstar, and he took over that duplex and fixed a lot of issues, issues I didn't even know about.

He got taken care of right away. And he built my confidence. He really did. He said, Hey, Jonathan, like, you know, we can do more of this. You know, like, we can buy more of these duplexes, I can oversee repairs. I've got some of these deals, you know, we should look at and I said hey, yeah, I'd like, I live out here and in Hawaii. I don't know if I really want to get involved in these large fixer upper kinds of properties. That's gonna be tough.

And he said, don't worry. Let's give it a try. I can help you do that and he kind of also wanted my entire portfolio to at that point.

David:

Smart man. Kinda pursue you around.

Jonathan:

Yep.Yes, he is. He's very, he's a very ambitious, hard working guy. He was one of the top also realtors in the area. And when I had hired this company, and I spoke to the broker, she knew I was very meticulous, and demanding, and wanted to put one of her top managers on my file. And I told her, I just fired another property management company for all these different reasons. And she said, Don't worry, I got the right guy for you.

And that was probably the best decision I've made when it comes to being a scaling up was hiring a property manager.

David:

Amazing what systems will do.

Jonathan:

Absolutely.

David:

And being able to like not worry about the things that don't matter.

Jonathan:

Yeah, yeah, absolutely.

You know, and at first I thought, okay, I couldn't. I can't afford it. One of the excuses I was making is, you know, I don't think I could afford it. But that's when I needed to look at different properties, yes, you can't afford it, if you buy the right kind of deal, the right kind of property. And they mostly are fixer uppers. So they need work, they're usually not in the best location. And it takes more management, it's more management intensive for the tenants and things like that. But those are deals I really should have been working from the get go for if you really want to expand rapidly, those are the kinds of properties you really should be looking at just the return on investment is just much better. And you can afford that management, which actually then makes it easier.

David:

About a win win to have a manager that understands and likes the renovation side of things.

Jonathan:

Yeah.

David:

That's awesome.

Jonathan:

Yeah, absolutely, absolutely.

David:

Next month when I'm in Missouri, and be like, hey, do you want to do this? Because I've got a friend out there that I hire stuff out for contracting, but you're pretty killer, if I can talk to my manager into doing it.

Jonathan:

Yeah, I don't think I've met anyone who has the kind of arrangement that I've got with my manager. Like I said, he's a hustler. And our kind of arrangement is, hey, if I buy a deal from you, an on market deal, he's gonna go ahead and oversee the renovation work for free.

David:

Awesome.

Jonathan:

Yep. So he's like my GC. And he has a network of vendors through the property management company that do a lot of the work for cheap already. Because the company itself manages over 1000 properties in the area there.

David:

Stay in business.

Jonathan:

Absolutely, so they get pretty preferred rates on vendors. So I ended up creating a system where I was able to take down some bigger properties so that it was in 20. Let me see my notes here. 2018.

David:

When you get this many deals, you have to write them off. Like you just can't remember everything.

Jonathan:

So 2018 it was in May of 2018. That with my property manager, the guy I hired me bought three duplexes the same day. We closed on three duplexes the same day.

David:

Wow!

Jonathan:

All fixer uppers, six units.

David:

Awesome.

Jonathan:

I would not have had the confidence to do that without his help, and, and we just kind of scaled up from there.

David:

Yeah, that's a killer. So six years where those all BRRRR strategies are just kind of like a??

Jonathan:

Those are conventional financing.

David:

Straight up.

Jonathan:

Yep, just straight up financing, 25% down. We're just strong cash flow properties. A little bit of work to get the old tenants out, get new tenants in at higher rent kind of situations.

35:00 - 40:00

David:

Yeah.

Jonathan:

But that was our niche, no BRRRR yet. We didn't start doing any better yet. We were still kind of putting quite a bit of money down into these properties 25%. But I love the cash flow. And we had the money, we had a lot of income coming in, we said, let's just do a 25% down and keep expanding that way.

David:

I mean, you're safe, you don't have the overleveraged risk that some people get into. So that's, that's good. There's a safeguard there, which I need to eventually get on some of my properties, because I'm a little over leveraged. So I want to have them but it’s cashflowing.
Jonathan:

Yeah.

David:

All right. So we're gonna detour before we get to the BRRRR. Let's talk about the good one. So for those of you who don't know, and I'm talking this way, but I'm talking to them, I don't even know if the camera is still on. It probably died. It's got like a 40 minute 30 minute battery life. So whatever. Okay, it does die.

Jonathan:

Is it still gonna record?

David:

Yeah, if it does die, it'll just be a picture of us smiling at the camera.

Jonathan:

Alright.

David:

So I'm all about the VA loan, because I totally went the wrong way. I got talked out of it. Yeah, you know, I'll tell it and one of the videos is coming out soon. But like a long story short, I went to a VA lender, and he basically told me, the second time you use the VA loan, it's super expensive. It's complicated, blah, blah, blah, blah, don't waste your VA loan on this property.

And so I bought an FHA loan, it was cheap, you know, $81,000 duplex, but I've spent $81 a month for four years. Now, in PMI, I spent an extra $4,000 down that I didn't need to spend, I did the math the other day for this video, I basically put 10 grand into this property in PMI and closing costs, and then the more expensive mortgage that I didn't need to do, you know,
I'm like, Man, that 10 grand could be another property.

So I'm fairly passionate about the VA loan and helping people understand it, because I got burned by a professional. And you have the most unique story. And not only is it the most unique VA loan story that I know, it's also probably the one person that I can always say, well, there's one exception to when you can cash flow in Hawaii, because a lot of people that figured out how to cash flow here. super expensive. And you have definitely done that.

So I would love to hear a little bit about this. We call it the monster house.

Jonathan:

Is that what they call?

David:

It's what they call it. That's how I met you, people say you gotta go to monster house, which I still haven't done yet.

Jonathan:

Okay, so the monster house.

Alright, so we moved here to Hawaii in 2016. Summer of 2016. We were renting we're paying about $2,200 a month in rent. Our BAH was about 3000 for one of us. So we were cash flowing pretty nice on that. And I've been hearing the stories that you can't cash flow in Hawaii if you buy a house. But at this time, I've done quite a few deals and many properties that weren't really that strong of cash flow. And I was still buying them in my market. And I said well, let's take a closer look at this Hawaii thing and see if I can make it work.

So I started doing some analysis and said, okay, the sweet spot, I think where you can cash flow in Hawaii, is if you can buy one unit, so like a two bedroom unit at about $250,000. So like a duplex, if you can buy a duplex for 500,000, you're probably going to cash flow four units at a million, you're probably going to have cash flow if the units are big enough, at least two bedrooms, preferably a couple three bedrooms would be better.

So I started looking at those options. At first, I started looking at just actual multifamily zone properties and found like nothing.

David:

Yeah.

Jonathan:

There's really nothing on this island. I mean, there's probably about maybe like two or three over a six month period of me looking. And they're usually duplexes. And they're like 750,000, 800,000, basically about the average price that you would pay for a home out here in Hawaii.

And I realized that what a lot of you are paying for in Hawaii is the land. So it's the value of the land itself. So the trick is, if you can find it is the biggest home property, the biggest property you can possibly find on the smallest land possible. You have the best chance at cash flow and getting a good return on investment.

So I started looking at square footage. So I started looking at 4000 square foot and above kinds of properties then 4500 and 5,000. And so seeing what's out there and that's where I started seeing the most potential. So I had made an offer and a property and an A and Aya and that was a three unit. It was a two unit in the front and it had a back cottage that was kind of on a slope on a hill and it was actually sliding down the hill like the footers are actually going away and eroding.

David:

Perfect!

40:00 - 45:00

Jonathan:

Yeah, it had a lot of issues, a private road for access to the cottage that it had to negotiate with the other people on the home and had to bring a banana bread and see if they wanted to give me rights and access to the road. I did get under contract with the property.

And eventually the neighbor said, No, we're not going to give you access rights to this road. I'm sorry, we don't want to have the traffic through here. This and that. Because it Forget it. I'm backing out of this deal.

David:

Mahali.

Jonathan:

Mahali, yes, exactly.

David:

For those who don't know, Mahali is a non local. That's the nice way of describing it.

Jonathan:

And that was about a 700. I think it was about 720,000 for three units. So it was within that criteria, right.

David:

You didn't factor in the house falling off a hill that you can't use even though it's your house.

Jonathan:

Yeah. Yeah.

David:

Perfect!

Jonathan:

And it sucked too, because I had actually installed handrails and things like that to help the property meet VA requirements. So I ended up losing about $700 to back out of that deal and handrails. Because that was, I ended appraisal, I also had to lose about maybe $600 in an appraisal. But if I knew that if I didn't get access to that road, it was a deal breaker. And that was not something that I was going to get access to right away, I needed to nurture those relationships with the neighbors.

I could have taken a gamble, I could have bought the property and continued to work with the neighbors and see what had happened and may have had to pay money for the road or or give him a lump sum of money. I think it was like five people who had ownership rights to that road. But it was never guaranteed. And I was always feeling a little hesitant.

And that was a really big decision to pull out of that deal. We put a lot of energy and time into it. Maybe three months of work into that. But it was the right decision.

David:

Sounds like it and especially now that I know what you got instead.

Jonathan:

Yes. And that's why that's a big reason why.

So he said, Okay, this didn't work out, we had even given a heads up to our landlord that we had been renting for a full year yet that we may be vacating that kind of pissed her off. And so we have to then rework our relationship with her saying, sorry, I didn't work out, we're gonna stay with you. But I kept looking, I kept looking for other deals.

And then the craziest thing happened. There was a road that we would run down about once a week, down a big hill, about a mile and a half from where we're renting, and turn around and run back up. And right next to our rental down that road was a property that had been on the market for about three months. And it was at 1.3 7 million. So I hadn't considered it because I said, Okay, this is way above my price range. Like, I'm looking at these $700,000 properties, like, that's just too big. But it's huge. The house is enormous.

David:

Yeah.

Jonathan:

So let me just play, just go check this thing out. Yeah, I'm gonna go just see what it is. So I went over there, made an appointment, checked out the property, and I was blown away. I was absolutely blown away.

So this is a two different homes, a front house and a back house, both of our two stories. And it was being used as a vacation rental. It was all furnished and everything like that, except for the front building upstairs, which was a long term tenant. So it had a total of three units in the front, two units in the back. The whole upstairs, the front two downstairs units, and in the back had the upstairs and the downstairs, five unit property 1.3 7 million.

And I said wait a second. This is pretty close to my number. Yeah, my numbers 1.25, which would be for five units at 250,000 each, and that will cash flow. And this is a really nice, huge property that actually had a lot of square footage.

So I went ahead and made an offer of 1.25. And it was accepted. It was a VA loan. And when you're buying a property at that amount, and you're over your VA limit, you have to put 25% down to the difference. So I had to get a little creative and my offer had to be contingent on me getting to pay the money for the down payment separate for properties on the market for sale. I told the seller I said Look, I know you want time to exchange this deal, because he's this investor as well and he is not in a hurry to sell. He was making money off the vacation rental income. So let's structure this with 90 day 90 day clothes. I've got four properties I'll put on the market. I am free and clear. These condos. I'll put them on the market right now. I've got a home that I can also refinance also, I got pre approval for that, to get my cash out for that. I'm going to get you the money for this downpayment.

He said that sounds great. So the very next day, we signed a contract. I showed him the listings were put on the market for sale. And those are gonna be my funds for the down payment for VA loan, which required it was over six figures.

45:00 - 50:00

David:

Yeah.

Jonathan:

Down.

Yeah, it was just over six figures down that I did not have that kind of money. Because remember all the money I ever did get I put into buying a condo or another property I had no role in, not just actual cash sitting in the bank account.

So it was a very interesting closing, we ended up selling three properties. We did a cash out refinance, we got more than enough money that we needed to buy the deal.

And we bought the property and converted what was the upstairs of the front building to match the downstairs. So we knew that downstairs was two units, at the very end was a one bedroom. And the upstairs was a replica of the downstairs. They just hadn't fully converted it to be a unit yet it had the plumbing for a kitchen, it had a bathroom, you just needed to close the door and renovate a little bit, which is what we did.

So we put in a new kitchen, we actually ran electricity up for a stove. And now we had a six unit. So I think it cost me about $10,000 to add to create that into a really nice looking rental. But now we ended up getting a six unit property for just about 1.26. With vacation rental bookings in place already, so cash flowing from day one with all the furniture included.

David:

Man, that's awesome.

Jonathan:

Yeah.

David:

And vacation rentals here in Hawaii is a big ticket item. It's also a point of contention depending on who you ask or what you do.

Man, yeah, you're the one person I know who is cash flowing enough to where I can call it cash flow here in Hawaii. I know a couple people who make a couple 100 bucks, but you're like, Okay, you spent a half a million dollars and you make 300 bucks a month.

Is that cash flow sure? Is that a terrible investment also probably Sure.

Jonathan:

Right.

David:

And you're doing quite quite well off this. We don't need to talk about specific numbers.

But I would be curious to know, you know, what's your plan going forward? Are you planning on holding that as a vacation rental? Or are you gonna eventually try to try to make a big play and get rid of it.

Jonathan:

Alright, so when I run my numbers, when I ran my numbers on this property, I wanted to make sure it works as a long term rental as well as a vacation rental. Because we've all known that the rules are pretty strict here about vacation rentals. And there's always the risk of them cracking down on the vacation rental industry, especially for people who don't live in the home.

So while I'm living inside the property, all I'm doing is renting out my bedrooms. I'm renting out a lot of bedrooms, so 5,6,7,8,9 bedrooms on vacation renting five different units while living in a three bedroom.

So I wanted to make sure I have a good exit strategy in case the vacation rental industry. It just doesn't work out. Let's just say I leave Hawaii. What does it look like long term rentals? So I crunched those numbers in the very beginning. And it does cash flow as a long term rental.

David:

Awesome

Jonathan:

It definitely does. It makes about $1,000 a month as a long term rental. Not a very good return for such an expensive property. You know, I've got duplexes that'll cashflow close to that for a quarter of the price.

But it works and what I see as it's a good retirement play. So there's some sort of satisfaction of knowing that you don't really need a whole lot of doors to get to retirement. If I just put that on autopilot, hire a property management company, even if it's just breaking even. That's a retirement for me right there.

David:

That's true because that thing you build if you pay off the equity in that thing, and next 30 years?

Jonathan:

Yep.

Yeah, exactly. And in each property, I didn't mention this, but each home is already separately metered for electricity. It's a lot of land and square footage.

Each one has their own parking. They can be easily subdivided.

David:

Yeah.

Jonathan:

Other people in the community have subdivided similar properties before. So essentially, I have two homes.

David:

Yep.

Jonathan:

That I bought as one. And if I ever wanted to exit in the future, I would say that I can minimum sell them for 800 to 900,000 each home. And 30 years from now there's no doubt it's going to be worth at least that amount. Maybe a million each.

Absolutely.

David:

Factor in some inflation. And you're right, each one of those is retirement.

Jonathan:

Absolutely.

So if I can sit back and hire a manager to manage six units, just six units for me over the next 30 years in one location. And one water bill. Electric accounts, I can put all this stuff on autopilot. There's really not a whole lot of stuff that's going to go wrong. And I'm looking at maybe a $2 million retirement nest egg right there that doesn't cost me any money actually doesn't make me a little bit of money.

David:

Not including the rest of your rentals.

50:00 - 55:00

Jonathan:

Not including the rest of the rentals. And that has a long term rental property. So I'm hesitant to sell it. Yeah, I'm really hesitant to sell it.

David:

I would be too.

We’ll meet up in 30 years. And, you know, see what that thing's actually worth.

Jonathan:

Yeah, that'll be. That'll be interesting.

That'd be really interesting.

David:

We will be really old and driving Manny Cashman style cars around but.

Jonathan:

Yeah, but you know, as well, I'm still allowed to vacation rented, there's, it's a no brainer, I'm gonna keep that going. The cashflow is so much stronger as a vacation rental. Especially when you have economies of scale. I've got a cleaner who's always cleaning every day. For different checkouts. We have like one night bookings as well.

I mean, it's a little hotel, we've always got people coming in and out. So we stay busy. And I like that. And I was able to hire a property management company as well, who's local, who deals with all my guest relations. And the only thing I do is I'm the guy who fixes up issues.

You know, I show people how to use the remote control if they don't understand I get people in if they don't understand he's a lockbox. And so just last night, I got back from Maui. And I replaced the showerhead. And I replaced a lock on a doorknob.

So I mean, those are the kinds of things that you know, I don't mind doing it's easy out here in Hawaii, it's so expensive to get a handyman out to do little things, and I live there, it's not hard for me to walk downstairs and, and fix an issue here and there. So I still do that. And I enjoy it. And that's my role with the property.

David:

That's cool.

Come a long way from being, you know, 5000 miles away self managing to living in the house and not self managing.

Jonathan:

Yeah, absolutely.

You know, over the course of and you know, over the last year and a half I've been able to change my model of completely control everything, self manage everything to hiring out systems expansion.

Now we average about one property purchase every two months, sometimes one a month doing BRRRR strategy in the Melbourne market. I really liked that strategy. It's incredible. And you guys have all heard about it, highly recommend it, especially if you don't have a lot of money. It's a great way to continue to get your money back. And, and just putting everything on autopilot with property management.

I'm setting myself up for a retreat from when I get out of the military.

David:

Yeah,

You are able to live the life.

Jonathan:

Yes.

David:

It’s gonna be exciting. I think you've got a similar plan to me going in.

I knew it something bit me. I was like, Why did my arm sting, all of a sudden, there’s a big spot on it, it was walking around something got me.

Yes, you're executing a similar plan that I am, at least as of right now to transition into the reserves and be able to, you know, have a little bit more control on your timeline in life and enjoy your investments, which is exciting.

Jonathan:

Yeah, it's always been a goal of mine, with real estate, to be able to not work a nine to five job.

I've always wanted to be able to go where I want, do what I want, be my own boss. Which real estate does allow that 100% I can sell when I want. I don't have any partners. I don't really have anyone that's full time. All my employees or contractors. I've got, like I mentioned with another property management company, I can let anyone go whenever I want. And just change the way I do things, no penalties. So I like the flexibility. That's always been my style.

Yes, that's not the fastest way to grow. Absolutely partners and more leverage is a faster way to grow if you really want to get real big, but it's gotten me to a point where now this very slow growth model has gotten me to 28 doors, plenty of cash flow that has exceeded what I make in the military. And now I'm able to do what I want. And what we've decided is best is to get out of active duty this year. Go into the reserves. So I've taken a position as an IMA actually right in Melbourne.

So I go there one month a year. I do my drill and look at my properties while I'm there. They're all right in the same area and do my work requirements. I still get all my benefits. I still get to serve. I love serving in the military. I think it's just a great feeling of satisfaction you get a bit. You know reserves don't really pay much money at all, but I do. I do like having that sense of purpose. And I'm really looking forward to that. But I did get very fortunate to get that location, and the other 11 months of my time, really, I can do what I want and haven't fully made up our mind yet, of what that's going to be.

55:00 - 1:00:00

Jonathan:

We've had a lot of talks about spending some time in Costa Rica, perhaps six months there longer. I've never been to Europe. I can spend as long as we want there. And it really it's, it's, it's my wife's decision.

David:

Yeah.

Jonathan:

Yeah. It's really my wife's decision on what she wants to do next. So she is right now deciding if she's going to stay on active duty and take another assignment. Or maybe she goes into reserves, we're just kind of filling it out and seeing what kind of opportunities come up. But we are on the driver's seat right now. 100% control of what we do. And we would not be where we're at right now, if it wasn't for real estate investing since 2011.

David:

Yeah.

To think eight years, right, like a lot of people do eight years in the military, and then they get out. And to think like you've essentially created. I wouldn't use the phrase generational wealth yet.

Although, although that may very well be the case with that one home. But you've replaced your income and created an entirely new life for yourself. And it's funny, because you got into that kind of accidentally.

Jonathan:

Yeah.

David:

And yet, there's so many people out there who listen to real estate podcasts, maybe listening to this right now. And like they're trying to do it, and they get in their own way by saying, Oh, I can't afford that. Or I can't do this, or I can't do that. Or the military doesn't get paid enough. It's like, no, I hate knucklehead. Totally, dude, you just got to stop buying xboxes and Mustangs. And I just love the fact that you were able to do this. And it started by you just saying like, hey, that's cheaper than renting. And now look at where you're at.

Jonathan:

Yeah, and you know what I'm not a cheap ass by any means. We vacation multiple times a year.

David:

Are there Oakley’s on your head?

Jonathan:

They are.

David:

Me too, I’m just talking too.

Jonathan:

You know, we vacation, we spend our money. But we don't spend it usually on fancy things. What we do is we go on a lot of vacations.

So hotels, things like that airfare. But I am careful, I am careful on how we spend it if we're going to fly somewhere, I usually book with points.

David:

Yep.

Jonathan:

Or if we're gonna stay in a hotel, I try to stay in more of an economy style hotel, I don’t stay in a five star hotel doesn't mean I can't afford it. It's just that we're just mindful of that. Because we know that the real benefits of going out of vacation is not where you sleep at night, it's being able to get around and big and travel and see new things and get that experience.

So that's what we enjoy doing. So our lifestyles, which mostly involves, you know, hiking and going to the beach, and just enjoying this, you know, this kind of scenery here today. It just, it just doesn't cost very much money. It really doesn't. So I think we're a little fortunate that we don't have, you know, my wife and I, we don't have expensive tastes. We've had her same vehicle since 2012. Same vehicles, we don't plan on selling them anytime soon, we're gonna run them into the ground. And, but we do go out a lot, we go out, we'll hang out with friends. And I don't mind picking up a bill, you know, and things like that. But I think that's a good thing. I think there's, there's certainly the approach of, I'm gonna say 50-60% of all my income or 70%, I don't measure it.

I'm not a spreadsheet guy. When it comes to I have a I have a spreadsheet for real estate. But I don't have a spreadsheet on what I spend money on. And I don't think I need it. Because I know that I don't waste money. If I buy something, it's because I need it. I don't go shopping. You know, I rarely ever go shopping. If it's because maybe I ran boxers or something. I mean, like, I go out if I really need to buy something. And I know that what we're spending money on is truly enjoyable, and it doesn't cost too much. So yeah, I think the lifestyle is always a good investment.

David:

I agree.

Jonathan:

Yeah.

David:

Alright. So we're clearly able to talk all day so I should probably get to a couple of questions then I'll wrap this up.

I like to ask if E one, E two was to walk up to you, you know, ask him for advice. You only had a few moments to give it what you would tell him?

1:00:00 - 1:06:50

Jonathan:

So if a young E one, E two were to ask me for advice. You know, I got to think back to when I was their age and you know, when I first bought that first condo, and that wiped me out, and I had the wedding going on, the ring, and that was that was very intimidating, you know. But, I had a lot of persistence. And I was confident because I was always seeking resources and information, I was reading a lot of bigger pockets. And that's where I was able to get advice from people who knew a lot more than me.

So I would say that, for the younger, E, one, E twos, find an interest of yours, it doesn't really have to be real estate. There's plenty of people who have been successful off of stocks and bonds. And, you know, Uber drivers people, I met a guy who rents out, he buys a fleet of vehicles and rents them out here on the island, you met him?

David:

Yeah.

Jonathan:

There's so many different ways to make money. Find something that you're interested in and passionate about, and go seek out some of the resources online. Because there's so many out there. Like I said, mine happened to be bigger pockets, I spent all day just reading different forms and getting all the information needed. That's where I even got my, my contracts that at least the properties out, I printed them out from bigger pockets.

I didn't spend a dime on education. But education is what builds your confidence, which lets you then go ahead and make those kinds of deals. If you're not confident, if you don't know what you don't know, you're never going to take that first step. And if you do take that first step, and you don't have the knowledge and education of what you're thinking about doing. It may be in the wrong direction. And it could set you back for a long time.

So yeah, seek one of those free resources online. they even have books as well. I'm not a big reader, but I would prefer online. Because with online, you can type your questions, and some will get back to you a book not going to do that. Right? You're not, you're not sure about what you just read. Okay, you're done. Yeah, exactly. So get online talk on a forum. There's plenty of people like me or you and everyone you know, that'll, that'll help you all with the questions you have.

David:

Awesome. Yeah I love Bigger Pockets and some of those forums for sure. That's how I, you know, I started, how do I do x? Oh, all right.

Jonathan:

Yeah!

David:

Okay.

If somebody's like, Man, that kind of covers the resource. I was gonna ask you for a book resource course. I think that kind of covers it unless you got a different answer for it.

Jonathan:

No, no, it's my favorite resource is bigger pockets hands down. That's been my research from the gecko from 2011. And it's, it's the best because it tailors to my niche of real estate.

David:

Awesome.

All right trying to remember my questions without looking down at my leg. If I guess so just ask, Is there anything you think we need to hit parting advice, big ideas or anything that we might have missed?

Jonathan:

Well, I would say that, don't rush it for those of you who've heard this, this podcasts and we're thinking okay, well, he's got this, this big portfolio now and he's buying these multi, you know, million dollar deals and whatnot. And I am looking into apartment deals now as well.

It didn't start this way. Just look back at the journey. Most of the wealthy people you find if you read a book, like the Millionaire Next Door, you'll learn that the path to wealth is not usually to get rich quick, though.

David:

No.

Jonathan:

It's typically many, many years of hard work, and being hyper focused, and having goals and, and sticking to those and creating that routine. Every day I wake up, and my routine is very simple. I already have a resource where I can already see all the new properties that are coming on the market. I check them every single morning, I hop on Craigslist, I check the for sale by owners. I hop on Zillow, I already have a search created in a certain area showing me all the new homes. It takes me about 15 minutes to do that every morning. And I see every new property. If anyone meets my criteria. I let my agent know when we make an offer.

So I've been doing that for years. And it's a habit. It's a habit of mine and I enjoy it. I really do. I enjoy buying real estate. But I think that people you gotta take that first step. You know, like I've mentioned before those condos really weren't the best cash flow deals. But it was working. It was working for me. I found a niche that not a lot of other people were doing. It is easy to get started with house hacking. I highly recommend house hacking for people getting started. But most importantly, take your time and enjoy the journey. Don't rush it, if you rush it, I promise you, that's how you make mistakes. Take your time.

You have a whole lifetime to build wealth with real estate. And it's a very slow game, real estate, you know, every home, you may make 100, 200, $300 a door per month, you know, on average, any real estate investor will tell you that with leverage. That's not a get rich quick thing. You know, you've got to have many doors to get a very solid cash flow.

So, take your time, don't make mistakes. So you don't make too many mistakes. Learn from your mistakes, and seek resources out there.

David:

I love it.

All right, Jonathan, if anyone wants to reach out and ask you some questions about whether the monster house BRRRR strategy condos, whatever, where's the best way to get a hold of you?

Jonathan:

Bigger pockets.

Alright, so message me at Jonathan Paz I don't know if you're gonna put show notes or anything like that.

David:

I’ll put that down below.

Jonathan:

Awesome.

So I don't have a fancy website or anything like that. If that's where my business model takes me in the future. If I decide to go that route, you know, maybe one day I do create a website. But for now, bigger pockets is the best way to reach me. And I'll get back to you.

David:

Right on. Well, thanks for joining us today out of this miserable location.

Jonathan:

Thanks for having me, I appreciate it.

End:

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